Answers to Your Toughest Questions about Betrayal with Dr. Debi Silber

Christine Li: 0:00

Welcome back to The make time for success podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Christine Li. And this is episode number 43. There are some people that you meet in life who make an immediate impression. And they know how to make an impact with the room that they're in, the people that they're talking with and the information that they've got to share. My special guest, Dr. Debbie Silber is just that kind of a person. She's on the show today to talk with us about the very important topic of betrayal. And she goes into detail in the episode about the research she's done with 1000s of people who have experienced betrayal, and the lessons we can take from those stories of pain, lives upturned resilience and reconciliation. She shares lots of amazing stories and her research findings in the show. Debbie is the CEO and founder of the PBT post betrayal transformation Institute, and she is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, and the author of three books. The unshakable woman four steps to rebuilding your body, mind and life after a life crisis. Trust again, overcoming betrayal and regaining health, confidence and happiness, and her forthcoming book from hardened to healed the effortless path to release resistance, get unstuck, and create a life you love. In addition to being on Fox, CBS, the dr. oz show TEDx twice, and more. She's an award winning speaker, coach and author dedicated to helping people move past any blocks, preventing them from the health work, relationships, confidence and happiness that they want the most. She's a powerhouse of a speaker. She's a wonderful woman. So let's get ready to get informed and educated by her. Let's go listen to the episode now. Hi, I'm Dr. Christine Li and I'm a psychologist and a procrastination coach. I've helped 1000s of people move past procrastination and overwhelm so they can begin working to their potential. In this podcast if you're going to learn powerful strategies for getting your mind, body and energy to work together so that you can focus on what's really important and accomplish the goals you want to achieve. When you start living within your full power, you're going to see how being productive can be easy, and how you can create success on demand. Welcome to the make time for success podcast. Hi, everyone. I have a ridiculous treat for you. Today I have my special guest friend and colleague, Dr. Debbie Silber, here with us on the show. She is a holistic psychologist, and an expert on all things health mindset, personal development, and the topic of betrayal. I am so proud and happy to have you here, Debbie, thank you for being on the show.

Dr. Debi Silber: 3:13

Thank you so much. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Christine Li: 3:17

Me too. Debbie and I have known each other for a few years, we've crossed paths at different conferences and speaking events. And I want to just prepare you Debbie is a font of knowledge. And she's a great speaker. So Debbie, can you start us off with telling us a little bit about who you are, what you do? And what makes you tick?

Dr. Debi Silber: 3:38

Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for those kind words. It's actually my 30th year in business and as life would morph and change so in business, so I started in health, and then mindset and personal development. And then I had trauma and it was the betrayal of my family. And I thought I did what I needed to do to heal. And then it happened again a few years later. And this time it was my husband shocked. blindsided anybody who's been through it, you know how painful it is? So I got him out of the house. And I thought okay, well what's similar to these two experiences, of course, me. But what else and I realized, you know, boundaries, were always getting cross I never took my own needs seriously. And I said, you know, that's that's it, something drastic has to change. So here I was four kids, six dogs, a thriving business. And I was like, You know what, I'm going back for a PhD. And at the time, it was by far the most bold thing I could do. I didn't know how I was going to pay for it, how I was going to do this. But I really felt compelled to move into this program. And it was in transpersonal, psychology, the psychology of transformation, human potential. And then while I was there, I did a study. I studied betrayal. What holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally. When the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. And that study led to three ground rules. discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work my life.

Christine Li: 5:05

Okay, beautiful. Now, when I hear you summarize that, it sounds linear, but I have a feeling it was anything but linear. And how did you support yourself through those difficult moments, those moments where you didn't necessarily know where to go next, because I have a feeling this topic of recovery from betrayal is going to touch a lot of people who are listening. So please share.

Dr. Debi Silber: 5:34

Absolutely. And you know, I just want to back up a little bit when I talk about betrayal. In my case, it was my family, it was my husband, it can also be your best friend, it could be a co worker, it could be someone in a position of authority, it could be self betrayal, right? It's so widespread. In the very beginning. I didn't know how to move through it at all, I was my own case study. And that's why I did the study. I mean, I just was desperate to understand how the mind works, why people do these things, and how I can heal. As I moved through it. I remember saying to myself, if I can heal from this, I'm taking Everybody with me. Integrity is my highest value. So you can imagine something like betrayal, there wasn't a cell in me, that was okay with anything like this. And it wasn't even enough, it's gonna sound really selfish, but it wasn't even enough just to heal myself. It was so big. I said, if I can figure this out, how do you not share something like that. But in the very beginning, it was the darkest times I've ever had in I had, I've been through death of a loved one, I've been through disease, betrayal was so different. And that was actually part of the first discovery. Because I had been through those things. Originally, I was studying betrayal and post traumatic growth. And for those who aren't familiar, post traumatic growth is few magic, kind of an upside of trauma, how trauma leaves you Whatever it is, death of a loved one disease, natural disaster, how it leaves you with a new awareness, insight perspective that you didn't have. And when I looked at the traumas that I had been through, I mean, I was in the ICU for 11 days, like I know, trauma. But I was like, no, nothing felt like this. But I didn't want to assume it was the same for all of my participants. So I asked all of them. And I said, if you've been through other traumas, besides betrayal, does it feel different for you, every single one of them said, Oh, my gosh, it's so different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self is shattered and has to be rebuilt. rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, they're completely shattered, like, let's say, death of a loved one, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss, life will never be the same. But you don't necessarily take it personally. Betrayal feels personal. So it didn't quite qualify as post traumatic growth. It was like true post traumatic growth, plus rebuilding the self. So I coined a new term, post betrayal transformation. That's the complete and total Rebuild of your life and yourself, after an experience with betrayal. So that was the first discovery. And when that showed up, it was like, wow, this is a whole different animal we're talking about here, and a whole different way to move through it. So it sort of gave way to the next two discoveries.

Christine Li: 8:30

Beautiful, and how did your life change when you realize you've found a way to explain this to people to help people unlock what they had locked away, or sat on or just blocked out of their awareness of what the work that they needed to do? What did it feel like for you to open this up in your own life and for other people,

Dr. Debi Silber: 8:56

it became so exciting, because so many of us, and this will bring me to the next discovery. We stay stuck for so long. And we struggle so deeply we think about it. This is the person or these were the people who gave us a sense of safety and security. So when this is the person, these are the people to shatter that very sense of safety and security. It's so traumatizing. And with betrayal. Think about it. We don't trust our betrayer we don't trust ourselves. We're like I'm a great person had I not see how to how to not know. And then we say, Well, if I can't trust the person I trusted the most. If I don't even trust myself, how can I trust others, so it shatters trust in every single area of life. And you feel so shaky and unstable, because there's nowhere you feel safe. Trust is so foundational. So when it shattered, it leaves us on such a rocky ground. So when there was just Just this one discovery saying, okay, we can actually reach this state of post betrayal transformation. It was hugely exciting. And then the next discovery showed up. And that was that there's actually this collection of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional, so common to betrayal, it's now known as post betrayal syndrome. And we've had probably 30,000 plus people take the post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. And a few things about that. The first is, there's a question that on the quiz that says, Is there anything else you'd like to share? And of course, you know, people write the physical, mental, emotional symptoms they're going through. But you know, we've all heard Time heals all wounds, I have the proof. That's not true when it comes to betrayal. Because people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I'm unwilling to trust my betrayal happened 15 years ago, feels like it happened yesterday. So we know, it's a very different experience. And we walk around with these symptoms until and unless we do the work to heal. And, you know, every few months, I pulled the steps from the study, just to see where people land, I have them would you like me to share some? Sure, love it? Yeah. So again, we have every age group represented just about every country, so 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hyper vigilant, I mean, that's exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers. These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy 68% struggle with their sleep. 63% have extreme fatigue, so they can sleep the whole night, wake up, they're exhausted. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe they can't hold food down later on. They're using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues, anything from Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, you name it, the most common mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed 70% walking around in a state of disbelief 68% are unable to focus 64% are in shock and 62% are unable to concentrate. So now imagine, you can't concentrate, you're exhausted, you have a gut issue. And here, you're supposed to take care of your kids go to work, right? That's not even the emotional symptoms. Emotionally 88% have extreme sadness. 83% are angry. When you bounce back and forth between sadness and anger. That's exhausting right there. 82% feel hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stress. So here's why I wrote the book trust again, ready. 84% have an innate ability to trust 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships, because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

Christine Li: 13:10

Wow, that's an overwhelming list of symptoms, first of all, and just before you went to describe the percentages and the symptoms, I was thinking to myself, what is the social fabric? For people who have experienced betrayal, there's really no net or no general understanding for how to comfort support, discuss these things. And people are going through high stress apparently, from what you just shared, internally, physically, mentally interpersonally. So we've got I think, in a way a dangerous situation for the person where they're not able to really be there full blossom to itself, and they're not able to feel safe, even in regular situations.

Dr. Debi Silber: 14:07

And to make it even worse. This is a time where we need support the most. But we're the least likely to seek it because there's so much shame, so much judgment and very often. The betrayed actually protects the betrayer at their own detriment, right. So that's one thing that's going on. And then the other thing is the wrong type of support. does more harm than good. We have people coming into the PBT Institute post betrayal transformation Institute with therapy trauma, and here's the thing, it can be the most well meaning this can be the most well meaning counselor therapist, if they are not highly skilled in helping someone move through betrayal. It does more harm than good. We see that all the time. So what happens is people have these symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. They feel awful, physically, mentally and emotionally. And it's this like really painful negative spiral. And they don't know it can get any better. And that's why when the third discovery happened this in the geekiest way, I thought my head was going to flow right off my body. This was, to me, the most exciting discovery. And this was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many of us do, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean, coming from the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, to that whole healed state of post betrayal transformation, we're going to go through five now proven, predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is, we now know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every stage. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. So healing now is predictable. And I'm happy to share the five stages if that would serve.

Christine Li: 16:05

I'm just sitting here thinking now I know why you were desperate to get into the Ph. D. program, you had this work in your heart already. And yes, please hear the five stages of recovery.

Dr. Debi Silber: 16:16

So of course, they're all interest. Again, it's what we teach within the Institute. But here we go. So the first stage was like a setup stage. And I saw this with every study participant Me too, if you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was real heavy, lean on the physical and the mental, the thinking, and not really prioritizing the feeling and you know, feeling and being the spiritual and the emotional. So it looks like we're really good at thinking and doing and not really prioritizing the feeling and being. But think about it, if a table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over. And that's us. Stage Two. By far the scariest of all of the stages. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind the worldview, this is shock. This is trauma, this is d day discovery day. This is like when the person takes the mask off, revealing who they have been this whole time. So a few things happen. You've ignited the stress response. Now you're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness condition, disease, your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm, you cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. This makes no sense. And there's a shattering of the worldview. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that prevent chaos govern you, right, and then one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've ever known don't go there, this person safe, right? is no longer. So the bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. So so it's terrifying. I remember one study participant saying you know what it feels like it feels like every negative emotion you can imagine getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd, all at the same time. It's awful. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, right? What would you do? You'd grab hold of anything, and everything you could to stay safe and stay alive that stage three survival instincts emerge, it's the most practical of all of the stages. You can't help me get out of my way. How do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? How do I feed my kids? Here's the trap, though. This is the most common stage to get stuck in. Because once you figured out how to survive your experience, right, you're like, Okay, and because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from. It feels good. And because we have no idea. There's a stage four and stage five, we start planting roots here, we're not supposed to, but we don't know that. four things happen. The first thing is you start getting these small self benefits. You get to be right, you get someone to blame. You get your story, you get a target for your anger, you get sympathy from everybody you tell your story to you don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. Do I trust you? Can I trust your app? Forget it. I'm not trusting anybody. So you plant deeper roots here. Because you're here longer than you should be. Now the mind starts doing things like well, maybe you deserved it. Maybe you're not all that great. Maybe this maybe that you plant deeper roots. Because this is the energy you're feeling because these are the thoughts that you're thinking. Like energy attracts like energy. So now you're calling situations and circumstances and people towards you to confirm Yep, this is exactly where you belong. gets worse. I'll get you out here because it feels so bad. But you don't know there's anything better. you resign yourself right here you're like, well, this is as good as it gets. But this is terrible. I better find a way to be okay with it. So right here is where you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy reckless behavior, anything to numb avoid distract ourselves from what's so painful to build our face. So think about it. We do that for a day, a week, a month. Now, what's a habit? A year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years out and say that emotional eating, you're doing or that drinking you're doing or that, you know, numbing in front of the TV you're doing? Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like, I'm crazy, because it happened 20 years ago. Do you see all they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there? That makes sense? Yes, it does. And that's why the book that's coming out soon from hardened to healed is just for the stage three years. Anyway, if you're willing to let go of the small self benefits, all you get with it, grieve, mourn the loss, bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal, here's where you acknowledge, I can't undo my experience, but I can control what I do with it. And I always use the example of if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, your stuff's not all there. It's not all cozy yet, but it's going to be okay. And when you're in this mental space, you start turning down the stress response, you're not healing just yet. But at least you stop the massive damage you were causing. And stage two and stage three. What's so interesting to stage four also is, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you. You don't take the things that don't represent who you want to be the minute you step foot in that new space. And what I saw time and time again, was if your friends weren't there for you, you don't take them with you. You've just outgrown them. And people say to me all the time, what the heck, I've had these friends 10 2030 years, is it me? Yes, it is, you're undergoing the transformation that they can't meet up to where you are, you don't have a place for them anymore. When you're in this mental place, you're making it cozy, you're making it home, you move into the fifth most beautiful stage. And this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self love, self care, eating, well exercise, things like that he didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. Your mind is making new rules and boundaries based on what you see. So clearly now. And you have a new worldview. Based on the road you just traveled. And the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was the physical and the mental. At this point, we're solidly grounded, because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual to those are the five stages.

Christine Li: 22:31

Beautiful, thank you for describing the complexity of the recovery and how we can be tricked by our own comfort moments and wishes that everything is over and done with and fine. I think that applies to people who have not experienced significant betrayal, as well. And it makes me want to ask you what you've learned about the human mind the mind set, kind of what is natural about recovery? Is there some sort of way that were meant to recover fully, and that we're actually accidentally blocking ourselves from that feeling of being okay.

Dr. Debi Silber: 23:20

Yeah. And it's a great question. And that's, that's what I saw. So clearly, in that stage three, the ego is raging. You know, we've been we've been duped. We've been blindsided, we've been hurt. And we do all we can to protect ourselves. But when we do, we're keeping love, intimacy, friendship, everything we want, at bay. So it's a real struggle. But what I learned also is healing is always a choice. Whether we rebuild ourselves and move on. That's what I did with my family, it simply wasn't an option to rebuild with them. for it, the situation lends itself if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something entirely new, and I'm talking to entirely new with the person who hurt you. That's what I do with my husband. So not long ago, as two totally different people. We married each other again, new, no new rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party. Now that was and I've been in. Like I said, I've been in the ICU for 11 days. That was the hardest thing I've ever done. That was by far, but what happens is with betrayal, it lends itself to creating an entirely new identity. You will leave behind everything that doesn't serve and you create a version of you that never would have had the ability to show up. If the experience didn't happen. It also is an amazing opportunity for the betrayer you know, betrayal will show you who someone truly is or who they temporarily became. And if it's the scenario where the two they temporarily became they have an incredible opportunity now To write the wrong, clean it up, do anything and everything they can, without any expectation of what will show up, you know, at the very least, you write the wrong and if it's not with that person, it's going forward, prevent it from happening, you know, with people you speak with and you can you can share it. I mean, that's what my husband did. He did all the work with, with me with my kids in the way they needed. He even called all my friends and apologized. And he sat down everybody in his in his office, big office, you know, teaching the young guys don't screw up your life, don't do this, don't do that. So it can be an opportunity in that way. It doesn't mean you have to reconcile, you know, not at all. It's totally and completely up to you. So you know, the most important piece of all of this is that trust can be completely, you know, people ask me all the time, can trust be repaired? I say, No. Can it be rebuilt? Yes, it can. Is it easy? No. But here's the way I look at trust. Trust is like a brick wall. Every opportunity Someone has to show that they're trustworthy represents one brick and that brick wall, right? So you can see, the only way I know of a brick wall being built is brick by brick by brick, it can take a long time. And then think about it in one earth shattering moment, the entire brick wall can come tumbling down. Well, you can look at the rubble of bricks and say, I don't have the least bit of interest, watching that thing get rebuilt, and you walk away totally fine. However, if you are willing, as the person whose trust was shattered, as the person who's been betrayed your job, if you choose, if you don't want to walk away is to be willing, the person who shattered the Trust has to be a really good bricklayer. And it goes back up the same way it did the first time, every opportunity, they have to show that they're trustworthy, one brick in that brick, well, here's what I see, though. The person whose trust was shattered, they feel so sad, they're so uncomfortable, they so wanted the way it was. So it's as if they said, Forget it, I'll build it, I'll build a brick wall. It doesn't work. There were actually three groups in the study who did not heal. The first, this was the group who these were the stage three years, they were unwilling to accept their betrayal, they just weren't having it. They had their story, they were sticking with it. The second, this was the group that was numbing, avoiding distracting. So maybe they ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer, or anti anxiety medication, maybe they started numbing in front of the TV, emotionally eating whatever it is, may have made the day a bit easier to get through, not without a price, they didn't heal. The third group. This was the group where the betrayer had no consequences. So whether it was out of just fear of the unknown, not wanting to break up a family, financial fear, religious reasons, that was a big one, they tried to turn the other cheek, they tried to put it behind them. I only saw two things with this group. One a further deterioration of the relationship. And the second thing was this group was the most physically sick, because your broken heart can handle that. But I get it, people are so afraid of the death and destruction of the old. But without that you can't birth the new. Like in my case, that was the deal breaker. So I was like, I wasn't planning on doing this on my own. And being a single mom and I, you know, I thought we were going to grow together and happily ever after kind of thing I didn't I wasn't counting on that. But that was the deal breaker. with that. I said, Okay, well, I have to heal from this. It's not an option. And it was in that willingness just to heal without any expectation of what was going to show up. But I get it that is too scary for a lot of people. So they just want to patch it up, patch it up, patch it up, and it doesn't work. I haven't found it to work. I see that all the time.

Christine Li: 28:46

Yes, I, of course want to ask now, how do you encourage women who are in those murkier zones where they're numbing, they're denying they're feeling really ill, that they have a choice and that there is a bright future ahead that this will work? What are the techniques that you use to support them and to encourage them to take steps forward?

Dr. Debi Silber: 29:12

Yeah, they're not going to like what I say right now. But I've been I've been at this for I've been coaching for 30 years. And if there's one thing I know, it's this, this is the best opportunity for you to grow physically, mentally, and emotionally. You don't have to make your decisions right now. And I encourage you not to you never want to make a decision from a low place. Because when you grow physically, mentally and emotionally, it may be a very different decision. So you know, to make that decision of, am I working towards reconciliation? Am I just trying to get myself together because I'm going to be on my own. All of these questions are actually blocking your healing. What you need to do is say how do I get to by physical, mental and emotional best. And what do I do? How do I implement some self care? How do I figure out who I am now in the wake of this experience, that's the work. And what will happen is a few things possibly, you grow, and you could very likely outgrow that other person, you're not the least bit interested. The other thing is that person can say, I better step up my game to meet the strength of that woman, man, whatever. The third thing is, you could just say, you know what, I like it here. And I just want to live here and be here in this place, and live here for a while, without thinking of anything else. We never know what's going to show up. But when you're committed to an outcome, during this very fragile, very tender time, your energy is being spent in a place where it could be much better spent somewhere else.

Christine Li: 30:51

I love it. very empowering language and guidance. Thank you so much for sharing your energy and your wisdom and your story and your beautiful work is so personal. This work is probably the most personal work probably this and, and death and dying, I'm going to guess that you're getting at people's vulnerability, their strength, their wishes for themselves and their identity and the world. How do we want to live in the world? And what are we going to do with our precious time here, even after a significant betrayal? May I ask? Because I want to ask as a therapist, and also as a friend of friends, what are your suggestions for how to support someone who has recently or not So recently, gone through a betrayal?

Dr. Debi Silber: 31:46

Yeah, it's such a great question. And so loving, and I so appreciate it. Because it is such a fragile time. You know, what helps the most? Because what happens is that person is wondering, am I crazy, or what the heck just happened? Like my whole world has just up ended. I don't trust in anything in anyone. I feel so alone. So scared, so crazy. So you want them to know you're not crazy, you're not alone, you can heal from all of it. Even if I don't have the tools to help you. There are tools to help, but you're not alone. And there's proof you can heal from all of it. I didn't do anything anybody else couldn't do. I just looked at it. Like if I don't do something really good with this. It's like a bed game of hot potato. Like it's what what am I the poster child for betrayal? No, it didn't make sense. And I had a very powerful story. Think about it. All the people that I trusted the most betrayed me. And everybody would have given me sympathy, you know, and that would have been the end of the story. But instead we're helping 1000s of people, that just feels much better. It's a much better story. So letting someone know they're not crazy. They're not alone, they can heal from all of it is a beautiful contribution.

Christine Li: 32:58

I think I'm just gonna point them your way because it is vital to store multiple 1000s of people that you've helped and rescued and supported and loved. So thank you for bringing the love here today. You are amazing. And thank you for this time together. Could you share with us how our listeners can stay in touch with you follow you work with you?

Dr. Debi Silber: 33:23

Yeah, sure. So the simplest thing is to take the post betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent you're struggling. And you can just find that the PBT as in post betrayal transformation, that PBT Institute com forward slash quiz. If anybody is interested in trust again, you can get it from Amazon but I invite you to get it from this link because you get a bunch of bonuses too. So that's the PBT Institute. com forward slash trust again.

Christine Li: 33:50

Beautiful Good luck with the book launch and all of your work. And thank you for sharing. Just this Lifeline with our listeners. May it do good going forward, rippling, rippling, rippling and helping those who need it. Thank you so much, Debbie.

Dr. Debi Silber: 34:08

Thanks for the opportunity.

Christine Li: 34:11

Thank you for listening to this episode of The make time for success podcast. If you enjoyed what you've heard, you can subscribe to make sure you get notified of upcoming episodes. You can also visit our website make time for success podcast.com for past episodes, show notes and all the resources we mentioned on the show. Feel free to connect with me over on Instagram too. You can find me there under the name procrastination coach, send me a DM and let me know what your thoughts are about the episodes you've been listening to. And let me know any topics that you might like me to talk about on the show. I'd love to hear all about how you're making time for success. I'll talk to you soon