The Future Self Principle: A Framework for Personal and Professional Growth with Dr. Hayley Kelly

Christine Li  0:01  
Welcome back to the Make Time for Success podcast. This is episode number 143. 

In today's episode, you're going to hear the story of my special guest, clinical psychologist and certified coach, Dr. Hayley Kelly. Hayley has been able to navigate away from a one path, one box kind of life path strategy, and build herself a career as a business coach, where she is now fully aligned with her dreams of making an impact and creating a legacy in this world as the founder and CEO of therapists rising, she's created a multiple six figure business, as she supports other therapists to evolve beyond the therapy chair, by developing courses, programs, retreats, and more so that they can impact more people and increase their financial abundance as well. She has done so well as a leader that she has just recently been nominated and won two awards at the OS mompreneur awards in Australia, she's won the emerging OS mompreneur of the Year Award, and the women Changing the World Award as well. Congratulations, Hayley. If you're listening to this episode teaser, I want to alert our listeners to the fact that Hayley and I discussed a lot of very in depth issues in this episode. And Hayley does mention the fact that in the past, she had thoughts of suicide, so I wanted to alert you to that fact so that you can safeguard your mental health. While listening to this episode, Hayley also goes into detail and describes the future self principle a principle that she uses for her own well being. And as she coaches her clients into their future self as well. I am very proud of this episode. And this conversation. I'm very grateful for Hayley for being the wonderful guest that she has been. And let's go listen to this episode together now.

Hi, I'm Dr. Christine Li, and I'm a psychologist and a procrastination coach. I've helped 1000s of people move past procrastination and overwhelm, so they can begin working to their potential. In this podcast, you're going to learn about powerful strategies for getting your mind, body and energy to work together. So that you can focus on what's really important, and accomplish the goals you want to achieve. When you start living within your full power, you're going to see how being productive can be easy, and how you can create success on demand. Welcome to the Make Time for Success podcast. 

Hello, everyone. I am incredibly lucky and very excited today to be able to meet an interview Dr. Hayley Kelly, and to have our conversation be shared with you today. Thank you for being here. Hayley, please let us know about yourself and everything that lights you up. And I should mention to our listeners, Hayley is a business coach, and a clinical psychologist. I am not a business coach myself, but I am a clinical psychologist. So Hayley, and I really have a lot of areas where we think similarly, we enjoy talking about similar things. And we share the same business coach. So there's a lot that we're going to get down to in this episode. Thank you, Hayley for coming. And please introduce yourself to

Dr. Hayley Kelly  3:43  
Oh, thank you, Christine. I'm likewise feeling so privileged, and so honored to be able to have this conversation with you today. So thank you for inviting me on. Hello to everyone listening, I am really, you probably can hear a very strong accent. So I will introduce myself and give some context around location and things like that. But I am Dr. Hayley Kelly, I am a clinical psychologist by training. And I have more recently, off the back end of a coaching career that I started to lean into, which would definitely inform part of the lighting story, have moved more towards business coaching, specifically helping therapists to evolve out of the very traditional, very boxed in one to one path that we are indoctrinated into, and to create other streams of revenue to create big impacts in the world and to create a sustainable career that actually reaches and helps more people at a time without compromising their well being. So that is me. And I live in Sydney, Australia, hence the accent. And I'm just so delighted to be here.

Christine Li  4:53  
We're delighted to have you. I know this is going to be an incredible conversation. Let's start big let's start by talking about the concept of impact what that means to you personally, and also how you've made that part of how you work with your clients and students.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  5:14  
Absolutely. So keynote way back when if we had met and had this conversation 10 to 15 years ago, my desire for impact, and I guess my, you know, to put it simply, my soul's calling towards having a life, full of meaning. And legacy was something that I very much shunned. I felt quite shameful about it, I felt a lot of people would judge me if I dare speak about the bigness, or the audaciousness of the dreams that I held in terms of the impact that I wanted to have in this lifetime. And I actually think, just as a side note, my desire to impact the world and to create a really beautiful legacy. By ignoring that, no, no, Christine, you talk about energy flow by ignoring that inner calling and inner nudging, I think, to be completely honest, that is what caused the most suffering when it came to my discomfort with the regular traditional one to one model, which as you and I would know is very slow, it's very deep. And yes, you make an impact, but it's one person one hour, one session at a time potentially over, you know, a person's short term lifespan, right? Like, it's slow. And for me, it actually felt like sitting in the therapy chair was soul destroying, because it didn't truly align with the vision and the impact that I wanted to create in this lifetime for myself. So it caused a lot of suffering. And of course, I had that story that it was just me, and I was the only one who struggled with this. But lo and behold, it is not. There are lots of therapists who feel the same, they have the itch and the inner nudge, that they do actually want to do something more. And I think this comes down to this word impact. And I think impact is synonymous with it a few different words, some of those words being service, another one being purpose. And I truly believe that human beings desire to leave some degree of legacy on the world in their own unique way. So it doesn't have to be these grand paradigm shifting legacies. But we do desire to leave the world just a little bit better than when we got here. And I think that is innate to most human beings. And I think that across the various experiences that we have in life, it seems that right, to varying degrees, but I think it is an innate drive in all of us. And so when I speak about impact, the first misconception that I definitely want to sort of strike through at the top of this conversation, is that it doesn't have to be these crazy big change the entire world vision for impact. I like to think about impact in the way of what are you here to do? No matter the scale of that the doing? What is you're here to do? What are you here to leave on the world? What is the legacy that you are here to create? And how can we get you out of the way because for most people, they are the biggest obstacle in achieving that impact. And of course, there's lots of six systemic stuff, and we can talk around decolonizing, and oppression and all of these other things. But one part of this equation is ultimately human beings are gonna get in the way of their own goals, their own desire towards impact and leaving that legacy. So that's sort of what I think about when I think about impact is how can we free people up to do what they were naturally born to do?

Christine Li  8:56  
Wonderful, I love that explanation. I love the definitions that you've embraced. Now, I am of course curious what your own journey of being able to say, I am going to follow the path that causes me less suffering, and leads me to be able to want to and try to fulfill my impact and make a bigger impact on the world. What did you have to go through? And for some reason, I'm thinking to myself, when you said the word suffering, I'm wondering, was there physical illness involved? And that's just a gut reaction from me to you. So please, please respond.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  9:39  
And yes, you're absolutely right. I want to preface this part of the conversation by saying that choosing to follow an impact Driven Life is not going to be suffering free. You're not going to be free of suffering. Should you choose to follow your dreams, your vision and to create an impact and legacy, by no means is that the case you'll still feel suffering. It's just that when and this is, again, another belief that I hold to be true, but I think we see these littered throughout history throughout the people who we sort of hold up in our culture and society as being impact makers in and of their own right, one of the big things that you see in this story is around when the mission and the impact is so worth it, that the suffering becomes secondary and tolerable because of that, so to preface following your dream, and your calling is not going to lead to less suffering, it's just that you're going to have, you're going to feel so much better equipped to move through those challenging parts, because you know, what's on the other side of it. But when we're not living on our calling, when we're not living towards our truest potential, then the suffering is for nothing. And I think there's a really interesting psychological result of that, right, so one of them the first one, when we can live into our calling, and therefore tolerate suffering as a means to an end. It helps us to grow, it helps us to evolve, it helps us to transform. And it is, I guess, infused with hope. Right? I'm doing this because so there is always this hopefulness that breeds throughout that journey towards Impact and legacy that is littered with, were the opposite to that when when living, not to trust, highest calling, we lose hope, which I think has disastrous effects for us psychologically. So just to preface the start of the conversation with that, but I am neurodivergent, I received a late diagnosis of autism and ADHD. When I was 37 years old, I was at the back end of a PhD, I was a mother at that point in time with a little baby. And finally got this diagnosis that made my entire life makes sense, in retrospect. But when I think about who I was growing up, I have, I tell my students and my clients this story all the time to give them context, about why I do the thing that I do, and why I'm here to create the impact that I'm here to create. I used to sit while all of the other kids were out playing on the swings and going down the slides. I'm not sure if you call it a slide in the US. But that's by the by we do have, but that would be fantastic. They would be out playing and doing all of those things. And you know, girls, my age would be gossiping, and doing sleepovers. And I was sitting there writing in my journal about all of the social problems that I would see around me and how I was going to fix those social problems. So I have these journals, and the scrapbooks. All of my seven year old self eight year old self nine year old self, sitting and thinking through how I could address and change the world, even at such a young age. And I think that that that light was deemed, as I continued to grow as I moved towards adolescence, and as people commented more and more on what a weird child I

Christine Li  13:22  
was, because I was very different.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  13:24  
Like I was very different to other kids. And again, looking back, I go, Yeah, gosh, I was so different. But once you start hearing that you're so different, the safety mechanisms that are built into our brain and our and our conscious and subconscious mind, therefore, is designed to go all I think I need to start to try and keep myself safe here. Because if I keep if I keep going down this unsafe path, bad things are gonna happen. So I think in order to keep myself safe from being ostracized, being on the outer, not fitting in being too visible for the wrong reasons I did my life. And so I lost, I think the outward expression of that spark, and I think I tried to fit myself into the mold of like, what are women? Girls, in this world supposed to look like? What are they supposed to speak? Like? What are they supposed to dream about? What are they supposed to do and accomplishing their life and I tried to fit myself into the box of that. It didn't work very well, as you can imagine. And I think we all do that to varying degrees. I don't think that's unique to me or anyone else who might have a neurodivergent diagnosis. I actually think that is very typical human behavior, to compromise their own self integrity in order to fit in and stay safely the crowd, but by doing so, cutting off parts of themselves that are important for them to be the truest, most authentic expression of them. So yes, I cut myself off from myself. I dim that light and I followed some really traditional path So I always had this desire to serve to impact the world. Lo and behold, I fell into psychology, it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. And it allowed me to sort of have that small taste of service. So I was helping people. But again, the magnitude and the scale, and the way that I think is very, very different to the system, and the structures of traditional psychology, I think, very, very differently. And so again, I had to cut these parts of myself and show up in this particular way. And we all have this like image of what ace, quote unquote, therapists should look and belong. And there's a reason why it's because that is what is, I think, subconsciously, and in an inch, maybe it's intentional, I'm not sure, but I certainly won't cast stones. But I don't know if it's intentionally but unintentionally promoted through our training that you have to be this type of person, we can all think of them in wearing a cardigan, they're sitting there with glasses with their notebook, usually they're white, middle to upper class, you know, probably all those stereotypes that we think about, we have the gym ourselves into being this particular type of person in order to be a quote unquote, good therapist. So I think I just continued to cut lots of myself off from myself, and deny my truest highest expression. And yes, you're absolutely right, I then went on to develop a series of really scary and intense, physical manifestations of that. So diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraines, you name it, food sensitivities, but I know now that they were all interconnected with, again, cutting off these energy flow parts from yourself. And so at some point in time, I decided to make a stone. So that was about seven years ago, I'm like, I'm like, this is I'm done. Like, I can't keep living like this, because what's the point like, I would be better off and there were moments in full transparency, where I had contemplated suicide as an as a realistic option. Because it felt so painful to live how I was living. That it was almost like the most obvious solution to this is just to stop. Right. And I think that's a very, I think, for a lot of people, that's a, that's a reasonable and logical train of thought, obviously, it's not logical in the sense that we don't want you to kill yourself. But there's this feeling like, I can't go on in the way that I'm going on. And it feels like the only option I've got, instead of making these drastic changes, and starting to find myself again, I'm just gonna, altogether, thank God I didn't. And there was some really pivotal moments in my journey that helped me to sort of see what was possible for me. And not only through these experiences, but also, I think, creating a network establishing a network of people who I'm like, Oh, my God, they're just like me. These people do exist, like, you don't find many people like us, Christine in the therapy world. But branching out, I started to actually see myself in people in broader networks and started to see maybe there actually is a way for me to work in more alignment in a life that feels worth living. And so I started to make some really drastic changes at that point, including stepping into coaching, developing coaching programs, and starting to think about how I wanted my legacy and my impact to look.

Christine Li  18:43  
Well, I am so thankful to you for sharing your story, I found myself holding my breath. And a while listening, because, first of all, you know, I think this of you, you're so eloquent, and your thoughts are so poignant, and powerful, and you just describe your experience so beautifully. But also, all of your words are woven, and connected to your mission. So that everything you speak and how you think about your entire journey, has mission involved in it. And you know, you're part of a small part of a very big mission, but that it is really important for you to figure out your part, so that the mission can thrive, and that you can thrive in return. And I'm so glad to see you on this side of all the strong call, and all the hard work that you've done personally interpersonally and with your clients and with our shared world to come to the point that you're in right now. I'm also wondering about those physical syndromes. I actually can't explain why I started thinking about that, but it would make sense Say you would not feel well, if you felt that you were not aligned with the things that really mattered to you. I'm wondering, are you symptom free? Are you feeling so much better now that you know that you have the path that is meant for you that you are meant for?

Dr. Hayley Kelly  20:19  
Absolutely. So again, this is not medical advice. But in my own experience, one of the most health promoting things that I did across my journey was to start to listen to myself more. Whether that was this doesn't feel good. Or I don't want to do this thing anymore. When I started to train into those things, or even like in the case of like, I need to rest right now. Like, my body is craving rest, and I'm going to allow myself to listen and to do what my body, my mind and my soul, my emotions are asking of me. And when I started to do that, of course, the that was under the guise of like, how can I get my career, my business my life more in alignment with who I am in the mission that I'm on, but that had flown effects to then how I listened to like, what is my body craving right now? How can I feed it and nourish it in a particular way? Like, what do I need to give it in order for it to be the strongest, most functional vessel that it can be so I can actually fulfill on the mission. And, anecdotally, I can see how that would have helped with symptom management and reduction when it comes to my physical well being. Because I've I started making better choices I wasn't working now. And Christine, you would know this, but therapists are notorious for self sacrificing. So we will show up to appointments. There was an I'm not kidding. When I say this, there was a post in our Facebook group that I'm in, it's a psychologist Facebook group, where the woman was saying, I went to work with a punctured lung today. And they were like, What the hell is that. So as soon as we can start to I think, listen to ourselves and deliver what we need, when we need it, then ultimately, our health is going to hopefully improve off the back of some of those choices. So yes, I have seen my energy increase. I now instead of like rolling out of bed, and, you know, hoping that this is the quickest day that it could be because I don't want to face it. feeling like crap, feeling like I was just in the grind. I now get up in the morning. Excited, like full of energy vibrant, ready? Because I feel like I am like truly living in alignment now. Yes, yeah. And so energy and fatigue. They, I think I know. Anecdotally, yeah, this is not definitely not medical advice. But anecdotally, I can see how those things would be related.

Christine Li  23:01  
Yes, yes. I love what you have said there about how we react to the signals that our internal system, whether it be our feelings, or our muscles, or our instincts, how we react to when we're feeling that something is off, or this is not right for me, or there must be something better. So I'm just going to put that out to our audiences, just Haley's advice, certainly to pay attention to those moments, to avoid ignoring those moments. And to really honor those moments, because they really might be telling you something very important about the path that you are currently on. And I think also one of the reasons I was excited to bring Haley on is, is she's an example of someone who made the decision to say, I can change, I can change in a very dramatic and important way. But not for nothing for something very, very important for something very significant to myself. And I think that is really, the reason why I'm so excited to know Haley and also to bring her to you all. So Haley. The other thing I was thinking was that you and I have the privilege of being solopreneurs people who are in business for ourselves, private practitioners, therapists are generally oftentimes are solopreneurs. What about the followers who are listening to your beautiful story, but thinking to themselves, well, that's nice for the solopreneur that's nice for the someone who can just make the courageous decision and step away. Can you talk to that portion of our audience for the person who might be is confined by other structures other than traditional therapy

Dr. Hayley Kelly  25:05  
standards. So I don't actually think the advice is any different. I think this honestly takes courage and bravery to look yourself fully and honestly in the mirror, and ask really hard questions of yourself with the willingness to be 100% radically honest about the answers. And so when people say, Yeah, but I do this, or this is not my particular story, I think that that's just, you know, the icing that we see on top of the cake. That doesn't mean the cake is inherently different. It's just that the variations of the icing and the decorations change, like our life superficially looks different from the next person, absolutely, with its own struggles with its own unique blend of decorative pieces. But inherently, we are still human. And so I would start by really taking stock of your life. Like, am I where I want to be right now, with 100%? Honesty? Can I honestly say that if I got to my deathbed, that I could say, I lived the life worth living, I lived a life that I am 100% proud of. And 100% of the areas that I showed up in? Or did I compromise? Did I shut parts of it off? Did I not lean into it because of fear, fear of judgment, fear of visibility, fear of success, fear of loss? Because I think when we can start to look and take stock at the current version of our life, and be very willing to hear the honest answer, then we can start to think about okay, what would I need to change here, even if it's just the smallest minut detail, like what is within my power right now? Because I am 100% of the opinion that at every step along the way, in our life, we have choices available to us, we may not like those choices. We may not like what those choices are, but we nonetheless have choices. And so getting really honest about what are the choices that I'm making? And are they in alignment with the highest vision that I could hold for myself in life? And if they aren't, am I willing to do something about it? And some people will say, No, I'm not. Right. And there is no judgement here. We think everyone has their own unique life path ahead of them. Some people will walk through life, for whatever reason, and getting through life and just sort of like surviving until the end going. And taking a deep breath at the ending. I thought, well, I'm excuse me, I'm so sorry, to small but what a ride like thank God that so but I think for some people that is 100% the life and the course that they will lead in that is okay. But I think there are a huge subset of people who are stuck in the hustle stuck in the grind, stuck in thinking that this is as good as it gets, when they actually have a choice available to them, they just don't want to see the choice.

Christine Li  28:26  
Thank you for those powerful messages. And thank you for your non judgmental tone as well. Because you can have a very powerful idea and not expect everyone in the world to be on your particular train. I know that there are many people on your train however, many clients and students are working with you now. And I wanted to just get your sense of what might be the the central guiding principle that you teach with, and I know a little bit of it, because I've been speaking with Haley a little bit just prior to this recording. But if you could share with our audience, I would appreciate that.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  29:09  
Absolutely. So I guess, you know, I have a blueprint or a framework that I walk people through, um, therapists to help them to move beyond the therapy chair. That's not what I'm going to talk about right now I'm going to take a step downward to the foundations that that has been built upon. And that is built upon this ID arm if you imagine a triangle that's been equally divided into three parts. It's this idea that whatever you want to have in your life, I'm going to use business as the example because that's what I teach into. But in order to have a successful business that works sustainably with your life, and allows you to have the impact and the mission that you were here to have, then we have to not only learn the business skills, so this is one quadrant. It's not a quadrant because it's triangle to one part of this triangle, which is the business skills right these external Things that you could be doing around like, How many times should you be posting? And what's your copy, say? And how is your messaging and all of these other external things that we look at when it comes to business? And that's like business strategy. The second part of this triangle is around the inner work. Right? So the inner strategy. So I talked about the idea where inner strategy meets the outer strategy, the inner strategy is all about, who do you need to be in order to successfully implement the strategies that you have set for your business? Or for your goals, right, because substitute goals for the thing, or sorry, substitute business for the goals that you've got? What are the goals that you're working towards? You cannot assume that you are going to be successful in having those goals. If you do not do work on yourself, to be the person you need to be to hold the beliefs about yourself and the world that you need to hold in order to make those goals become a reality. And I think that's where a lot of people fall down is that they focus 100% on the external stuff. Right? So what strategy am I going to use to get there? Without thinking about, Well, who do I actually need to be fundamentally and to believe about myself and the capabilities and the world in order to successfully do those things. And then the third part of the triangle is the nervous system. So I think this is a crucial piece of the puzzle that is often missed. But as therapists were like, of course, IBI, how important is this, but it is virtually never talked about in the business world. It is not only about voodoo I need to be but how do I hint to my nervous system, my physical well being, how my body holds itself, the stuff that it remembers, from a nervous system perspective, because of the experiences that I've had. If you can't regulate your nervous system, and soothe your nervous system, when you are stepping into doing things that you've never done before, do you really think you're going to be able to do those things? And the answer is no, of course, right? Because we blow out our nervous system, or we may be able to do it, but for a short period of time, it's not going to last, because we do end up running out of fuel, our nervous system is like I'm done. This is too much, I need a break. And we may see, you know, the the physical manifestations of that as well. But if we don't attend to all three of these things in our life, I think we are setting ourselves up for failure. My ultimate belief, and what I think we've through everything that I do, is future self worth. I think future self work has been the foundational piece in how I have achieved the success, the level of success that I have, and how I have helped and supported the therapists that I work with to do the same. We start with a place of true is this future self. So the demo, we think about the life that you're currently leading the things that you're currently doing, instead of and this is a really different way to look at traditional goal setting, which would just say things like, set your goals for this amount of time into the future and then work towards getting there. But contextually, that actually makes no sense. Right? It makes no sense. And hence why goal setting is so hard for people to maintain and succeed at. It's why we see on January 31, why why so many people are no longer going to the gym, right? Because they set goals from where they are at this point in time. And I believe in there is a lot of research to back this up that setting goals from a future self state, allowing our future version of ourselves. So we can tap into that using this idea called prospection, which is the very unique human ability to cast our vision into the future, on see possible futures for ourselves. No other animal can do this except humans. So this unique capacity to prospect our way into the future, and allow our future self to dictate where we are going. And then reverse engineer goals from there. Right so and this aligns with all of the stuff we've been talking about so far on creating your mission tuning into your impact tuning into, like, what is a life worth living for you? No one will know that better because your current self hasn't almost no idea what that is your future self does that that person who's already achieved it, who's sitting there waiting for you in your future? Who's already had those things that you want? And he's sort of just sitting there waiting going just asked me and I will tell you allowing them to be that North Star, that guiding force in your life. They may change so that that person in the Future may change depending on where you are and what you know, right now. They become this beautiful guiding light for you in terms of am I on the right track? Everything else is contextually meaningless for us. Because we have no idea why we're doing it. Right? There is no anchor point in the future that can help to guide us and even then be used as a bit of a litmus test of like, why am I doing this behavior right now? Does this get me closer or further away from that future self becomes this beautiful way of existing in the world. And so I think that in and of itself, as a foundational piece, has changed my life beyond which

Christine Li  35:44  
I am speechless, mostly. But thank you for that explanation of how you work, how you are, how your mind works. And I can only say that I think prospecting is your zone of genius. And thank you for describing that model of being to me, and to my audience today. I just love this. I love you to pieces. Thank you so much for sharing your power, your wisdom, your journey, your growth, and your inspiration. This has been really a wonderful and remarkable experience for me, and I want to thank you, for maybe you, Hayley,

Dr. Hayley Kelly  36:29  
who made me cry. Thank you. I appreciate that immensely.

Christine Li  36:33  
I think you probably made me cry a couple times. So can we let's say I'm gonna have you back again. Because I know we have so much more to talk about and I would love to have you just describe how our listeners can stay in touch with you and learn more from your wonderful self.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  36:55  
Absolutely. So I'm on socials, which is under at Dr. Dot Haley Kelly, who's ha YLEYT e double L Y. Yes, I have a first name for a last name. People get very confused that Kelly is my surname. And I'm across all socials at on Dr. Dot Haley Kelly, or they can find me at therapists rising calm. We have a queen, that therapist rising.com forward slash quiz which will help people particularly the therapist, who might be listening to figure out where they currently are in their journey, and what their future steps might be in order to start living into more alignment with the life that they want.

Christine Li  37:39  
Thank you so much, Hayley, again, I'm sure you've inspired many with this conversation. And I want to point everyone over to your podcast as well. Therapist Rising, where you can hear much more from Hayley and her guests and me soon. I will be a guest on her podcast soon as well. Thank you so much, Hayley, for this wonderful experience.

Dr. Hayley Kelly  38:04  
Thank you, Christine.

Christine Li  38:05  
And I want to thank our listeners for following along and for welcoming Hayley with me, and I look forward to talking with you again next week. I'll talk to you then. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Make Time for Success podcast. If you enjoyed what you've heard, you can subscribe to make sure you get notified of upcoming episodes. You can also visit our website maketimeforsuccesspodcast.com for past episodes, show notes and all the resources we mentioned on the show. Feel free to connect with me over on Instagram too. You can find me there under the name procrastination coach. Send me a DM and let me know what your thoughts are about the episodes you've been listening to. And let me know any topics that you might like me to talk about on the show. I'd love to hear all about how you're making time for success. We'll talk to you soon.

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